All this talk about balance in the game has got me thinking........ Why? What is really the point? So what if people favor certain species over others? Do we really have to balance everything out? AND why? So that M.O.A.G. can be Politically Correct?
Also not everyone favors the same characters. Like Shadowwire mentioned, I know someone that has two Ucasi characters and he probably will never have anything else. I favor Klisks and Gargonans for the sole reason that when the going gets tough, I'm usually the one that got it to that point and I need a character that can take the brunt of most combat.
The point I'm trying to make is M.O.A.G. doesn't need more balance. Diversity yes, but the balance comes from people figuring out what the strengths and weaknesses are for their characters and working them to their advantage.
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23 comments:
Because there has to be something other than the pride of being a human for most people to desire playing them. It is those politically correct people who are going to be buying the game.
Most people who will buy the game have played other RPG's before and will not take us at our words that it is worth playing, they have to see it for themselves. If they don't like what they see at a glance, most people will not play it and will persuade others that it is not worth playing. It has to make sense to everyone, not just to us.
It has to fit, at least a little, into the mold that most people use when judging an RPG. Balance is one of those "essential" things that make an RPG playable to most people.
I kinda agree with both of yous.
Shadowwire and I talked, he convinced me that his way is good and I agree for the most part. Yet a few more bells and whistles for the races shouldn't hurt the game balance, I think it would help it.
So who should get the bells and what should the whistles be?
It doesn't have to be very difficult. It could be something as simple as giving humans a bonus to their Charisma and an innate ability to barter. They could have the ability to read others body language and have a strong intuition, thus giving them an ability to negotiate or to bluff, or to see when someone is trying to fool or manipulate them. The powers of persuasion and observation are some of the most valuable skills one can have, even in the real world.
For humans to survive in the post invasion universe, they need to have more than just resilience to the physical to survive. It is one thing to survive the gassing of a planet, but it is another thing entirely to have to learn to adapt to a universe in which they are literally thrust into, a world that is inherently inhospitable to them. The universe is not a human universe. They are forced to live by others rules, or to make their own. This should be reflected in them in a much more glorifying way than to simply say, they are average. They have slightly higher attributes then their predecessors. This is just ridiculous. They are average? Give them something unique; give them SOME KIND OF ADVANTAGE. The descendants of the humans who survived such an ordeal are worth much more than just a slight attribute increase. They need to embody some kind of admirable *something* that makes them more than just human. For them to be able to not only survive, but to expand, it would help to offer something for it to make more sense.
I don't believe that the Conar or Gargonan, Moti-awsomeness need anything else. But some of the others races may.
Yes, Humans are the average of all of the species, but that is exactly what they are; AVERAGE, in every way, not exceptional, not awesome. I believe we need to give them something that makes them "remarkable," with equal worth to any character. I believe we need to do this to every race, find 'something' to make them equal. It doesn't have to be attributing based, it just has to be SOMETHING.
The simple explanation that “they survived the gassing of the planet so all the survivors are a little more resilient,” doesn’t work for me. I don’t believe it will stand up to scrutiny from others either. A little more resilient would still have caused them to go extinct IMO.
Not trying to cause conflict here, but I believe that it needs to be revisited, at least a little.
I figure that if we’re going to do this, we need to do it justice. That means continual modification and adjustment. When we are done, we need to be satisfied that we’ve done everything possible to make it what it is –the best RPG ever conceived. If this is an issue with me, as someone who loves the game and considers it to be in part my baby, I can guarantee that it will be an issue with others.
Every creation needs to be sifted and refined; this is simply part of that refinement process.
OK, Kang, I agree with you to a point. BUT who said that the humans were thriving in this new environment? How many humans have you run into in the game?
Thriving or not, they are a playable race.
We can give them a little something and still give the player the notion that the human is the under-dog.
Lets just give it a try -if it doesn't seem to be helping, we can always scrap the idea.
Whose gonna stand up for the Cylonquin??? jk.
Now that all things are out on the table, what are we going to do for them?... I mean us.... I guess I'm Human too.... LOL!
I'll stand up for the pretty boys.
They have the same score as humans but they have pointy ears. So shouldn't we give them something as well? They are underdogs as much as the humans are, since comeliness is averaged across all races.
So to my point, if we need to add more to the "weaker races" what do you guys want? Better attributes? Because Shadowwire has done his best at making the attributes balanced.
Some racial ablility? Because as I see it Klisks are rocks, Sargonians are made of rock, Gargonan = better willpower plus endurance, Konar jump buildings in a single bound and are really strong, Motiqee? have huge brains, same with Ucasi, and Macaneons are multi-talented, gorlochs are smart, capable apes, Narescan are just cool and what are cylonquins and humans?
I see both those races as below the average of the rest. So what now, what do we give them without upsetting the galactic order of things?
I think we can give them the ability to kill wildabeasts from 50 yards..... WITH MIND BULLETS!!!!!!!
Seriously though, if we give Humans and Cylonquins something because they are both "below average" then don't we have to give the rest a handicap that would bring them down? Granted some of them have it already, like Ucasi are really smart, but they tend to blow away in a strong breeze. Klisks are huge, but tend to break the Rubiks Cube instead of solve it. What about the Gargonan and Conar?
I see your point Mr. Bot and I see Mr. Kang's point aswell.
But I can't think of a viable compromise to this problem.
I like how Shadowwire has set the stuff up, but I think a little tweaking to the races would make it better.
So it comes down to this...
Leave it alone or Tweak it a little. I propose a vote amongst the creative team. Since I'm not one of the originals, mine won't count but heres my opinion.
I vote to tweak it a little.
I was reading the comments, and something Bot said struck a chord with me. He asked Kang how many humans had he ran into while playing in the MOAG universe? That is a question that we all can ask. I'm afraid to say that unless I'm playing pre-Moag or on Earth, I don't run into hardly any humans. And I've never been with a group of players and had one of them say "I want to play a Human." You can add Cylonquin to that as well.
Now I'm not saying that just because nobody picks them to start a character means they are not worth playing. I have a Nareskan, who may be a bit better than both of the previous species, but it was quite fun to be the underdog. But most people wont see it as an underdog, they'll just see the disadvantages.
I do agree with Pablo on this that it doesn't necessarily need to be equal as far as attributes go. In fact, I like where the attributes are at the moment. But we do need, as Kang has said, something that will make a new player want to play every character. Think about D&D for a moment. When you create a character, you know that while they are not equal in every aspect, each race or class has a special something that makes them better than the rest in a certain category. I don't think MOAG has that. Yet.
While giving them a better bartering ability is something, it doesn't excite me. Especially when I'm looking at a Gargonan with a bonus for Will-Power. Gee, he can bend metal with his mind, but he's gonna have to pay full price for that rifle; sucker. I think we could make Humans more adept at will power, with some caveats. How about giving them a similar starting will-power bonus like the Gargonans? Humans are a fairly smart species. We already have similar ideas such as chi and whatnot. And will this really hurt the game if we say Humans are adept at will-power? I think that a human using Aelom will give a Conar a decent fight, but he's still not favored to win. It might be something worth looking into.
Anyway, we need that something for each species. I don't think we need to make them all have the same attributes, but we can give each one something that the species really excels at. And I agree with Kang that we need that.
Well, ive been wanting to make a comment on this subject for a while just haven't had the chance. My ideas might not be worth 2 cents but maybe they might mean a lot as to me being a newbie to MOAG.
I was also thinking there needs to be more diversity in the game. Its hard for me to explain myself so ill just use an example. Ive seen some characters like Klisks that have higher "certain" skills (like computer skills) than some others, like Macaneons.
Im not saying that people should not be able or allowed to put a lot of points on certain skills, but I think that there should something done to make a physical impossibility like a Klisk using a computer "efficiently" harder to achieve than for say a Human or a Macaneon or a Ucasi.
Juanito, you may have something. But first let me say, Giving the humans a +2 bonus to willpower to start would probably be ok. Unless you consider that willpower was intended as an add-on. If we realy want balance, we need to consider far more than just attributes. For example, What skills are the most usefull, or most used, and what species are more adept at the attributes that go into those skills. We should calculate every species down to the last iota and even them out somehow.
A problem arises when we start talking willpower as an add-on. It unbalances the Gargonan as opposed to everyone else.
Yes, there is a lot to be done. Lets toss some more idias around and crunch some more numbers and perhaps we'll come up with something better. The Human problem is not one that stands on its own. There is no ballance.
The Complete Compilation of Compromises; Composed Carefully and Comprised Completely of Coolly Considered Character Conditions. This Cropped Composition is Congratulant of Classic Communication Common to Congruent Comrades of uncommon Caliber who Cast-off Consternation, Completely Conquering with Consultation all Clearly Calamitous Conditions of the Contesting Constituents. Candor and Compromise is Quite Conducive to Creating Clear Creative Corollary for the Coming Compendium.
Contributions Counted:
1)Cybernetic Implants
2)Certain races require less XP to get new skills
3)Higher add roll for select attributes.
4)Choose one or more skill with a half upgrade cost.
5)Charisma Bonus with uncanny powers of persuasion, psychological perception and intuition.
6)Make humans more adept with will-power with a starting average near that of a gargonan. offset, perhaps, by restricting the # of starting will-power skill points available.
7) Give other species certain conditional handicaps.
Feel free to add.
8) Innate resistance to toxins, poison, and gases. Due to Gassing.
hello everyone I found out what my password was so now I can do other stuff than read ...anyways on the subject I can agree with all of everyones suggestions but ill have to agree with Bot the most.. because if I don't then Bot will surely smash my head in if I don't agree
I personally have run into several humans lately. Savara has 5 or 6 human mech pilots on her crew as well as having the great Jaster Mereel as part of the Tiberion Corporation.
Let me just say, I agree with MUCH that Kang and others have said.
Pablo D. has created several human characters that are simply amazing. There is Jaster, that cocky, bullheaded son of a gun, who when he realized his physical limitations, had cybernetic implants added to even the fighting field.
"The Terror" Terrol, is Anvale's top Military guy ( I don't remember his title); he's earned his nickname not just from his military prowess on the field of battle, but his devious mental prowess also.
The Deathshead Legion is just scary. I'll let Pablo elaborate on them; too scary for me.
Last but not least is Char Anvale, Human willpower user extrodinare. Who else could take on and absorb the powerful willpower essence of Agronac?
I've run into at least one other very strong willpower user (Zead Dahl), and Anvale was different. He wasn't afraid to ask for help from others to accomplish a common goal, after helping them to understand WHY it was a common goal; working along side them, and rewarding them richly for their service.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is this:
Pablo D. has a vision of what Humans in the Moag universe can be that no-one else has had. Let's learn from his characters and adjust skills so others can reap the benefits of his vision right away and want to be a human character in the MOAG universe.
Thanks Savara, but a couple of clarifications. Aside from Jaster those humans are NPC's, that's why they are strong. And they were all created in my campaign because you guys came into a galaxy populated by humans. So humans were the only option to make powerful NPC's from.
Not trying to ruin the compliments cause they cool) but just trying to make sure that people realize that these are npc's not playable characters.
Some people don't necessarily want implants to "help" their character. I have a Nareskan that I like to play, and I'll say this, it's a lot more fun knowing that I could die because a Klisk farted on me. It makes the game so much more complex when you have to plan for the fact that you are not playing on an even battlefield.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't think the Races need to be equal, I just think there needs to be some motivation to play a certain race. I would hate to take away that fun that I described above because we leveled the playing field. But I do think we could do some small things that would make it more appealing to play different races.
Yes, it is about appeal.
However, if we give the humans a resistance to gas, they'd be far more likely to survive a taxi ride with the Klisk driver after their quick stop at the local burrito-shop.
Life isn't balanced...
I feel like I am late to the party ha ha
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